EventNewsDXB

Tammy Urwin: Creating Moments That Outlast Your Event.

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When Tammy Urwin swapped dreams of the auctioneer’s gavel for a Lapland winter as Santa’s assistant, little did she realise it would be great training for her future career in the event industry!

In this weeks episode of EventNewsDXB, Urban Events director Tammy Urwin, joins me to unpack how she wound up doing “experiential” before it had a name and how she designs her events for emotion and memory over format. We also talk zero-waste festivals, like Corona Sunsets, which saw 30,000 people attend over three days, with nothing going to landfill and why sustainability has to be in the brief throughout, not a line at the end. 

She also talks candidly about saying no to procurement driven briefs and keeping her event agency intentionally small. And we dig into AI’s real utility  - speed, not strategy; plus why hiring for attitude wins and how she's building a pipeline of female talent in a male-dominated industry. 

If you care about creating moments that outlast the event, this conversation is a good place to start. 

EventNewsDXB is supported by Warehouse Four and -45dB

Production Credits:

Presented by: Ian Carless
Studio Engineer & Editor: Roy D'Monte
Executive Producers: Ian Carless & Joe Morrison
Produced by: EventNewsDXB & W4 Podcast Studio

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Speaker 1:

Thank you, or part of an in-house team. I hope that this podcast gives you some practical takeaways, fresh perspectives and a deeper understanding of how things really get done in one of the world's most fast-moving event markets. And for season two, I'm super pleased to let you know that Event News DXB is brought to you by Warehouse 4, probably Dubai's best independent event menu, and Minus 45DB, the team transforming noisy event spaces into slick, sound-reduced environments. From full-size conference theatres to compact meeting pods, minus45db builds modular spaces that are quiet, customisable and completely turnkey. And they're sustainable too Smart design with zero waste. Check them out at minus45dbcom.

Speaker 1:

When today's guest swapped dreams of the auctioneer's gavel for a Lapland winter as Santa's assistant, little did she realize it would be great training for her future career in the event industry. In this week's episode of Event News DXB, tammy Irwin joins me to unpack how she wound up doing experiential before it had a name and how she designs her events for emotion and memory over format. We also talk zero waste festivals like Corona Sunsets, which saw 30,000 people attend over three days with nothing going to the landfill, and why sustainability has to be in the brief throughout, not just a line at the end. She also talks candidly about saying no to procurement-driven briefs and keeping her event agency intentionally small. We also dig into AI's real utility speed, not strategy, hiring for attitude and building a pipeline of female talent in a male-dominated industry. If you care about creating moments that outlast the event, this conversation is a masterclass, so let's get into it.

Speaker 2:

You're listening to the Event News DXB podcast.

Speaker 1:

Tammy welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much, lovely to see you.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to be really predictable here. Start right at the beginning and ask so, how did you get into events and how did you end up in Dubai?

Speaker 2:

Oh, my career. When I left university, well, the dream for me was to be an auctioneer.

Speaker 1:

Oh.

Speaker 2:

I did art history. I loved art history, realized I could never do art myself. I love theater, I love an audience. I want to be an auctioneer.

Speaker 2:

I ended up working for a telecoms company after I graduated. You know, as you do, first job, getting in, yeah, and I was there a number of years and ended up in business development and marketing and left to go and do my my gap year like three years after I'd actually graduated in a ski season in Lapland who does a ski season in Lapland? I thought I was going to Val d'Azur. I was Santa's assistant for a whole season, so that ruined my dreams there.

Speaker 2:

Um, and then when I came back, looking for a whole new job and I ended up working for a children's charity called CLIC now CLIC Sargent and Children vs Cancer and it was a community fundraising role. So within that was obviously business development, sales, marketing and events, creating events, supporting people with events, which was completely new to me. Absolutely loved it. I love galvanizing people, I love helping people bring their idea, their vision together, and obviously that was on a small community level. And then I was promoted to head of national events, which was a really big role, bearing in mind I had no kind of formal events experience.

Speaker 1:

Who does?

Speaker 2:

So I ended up coming up with campaigns around sport, around music, with the idea being to engage hundreds and thousands of children at a time. So this was an amazing induction into events, in the scale of events, and even then in my head that was still fundraising, that wasn't events per se.

Speaker 2:

Worked with some amazing sports people, music people and, most importantly, generated amazing financial results, which is what the aim of it was. And then I was approached by a company in Manchester that specialised in sporting events and that was they were running their own events with major sporting names who perhaps have recently retired or during their testimonial years, and we do dinners, lunches aimed at the business community and then testimonial matches and things like that. So we're just talking there about some of the amazing people that I've got to work with and manhandle during that time, from people like Sir Alex Ferguson, sir Henry Cooper Pele. I was Desmond Tutu's assistant at a celebrity football match Really Random and Tutu's assistant at a celebrity football match Really bizarre.

Speaker 2:

Holding ice pack on Shane Warne's shoulders during the Ashes so he could sign merch and things like that. So for the book, I'll keep that for the book. So a real and organising these lunches and dinners and we do hundreds within a year.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And that was that for me was organising events, because that was on a more intimate scale and for me, the thing I loved, while the events themselves were quite formulaic. This was in the early 2000s. There were no bells and whistles. It was a group of people coming for a lunch or a dinner Seeing people's faces when they met their sporting hero, and we'd have the CEO of HSBC Bank turn into putty.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely starstruck, because they best stood next to Alex Ferguson, who has been their hero, and I realized then the impact of events and the opportunity and the privilege of being able to bring these people together in a room. And then same company. My then boss came over to the Rug Sevens and he said it's an amazing event, We've got an amazing opportunity. They're not doing any sporting events like we do over there. Let's go to Dubai. I was just getting married. Husband gave up his job. We rented out the house.

Speaker 1:

Sounds like a leap of faith.

Speaker 2:

Well, faith sounds even more organized than I was. And we came over, we did a recce. We met some amazing people. I signed up my first client straight away, and the expat network is fantastic, and the sporting network particularly, then the introduction to people through particularly the rugby community, and I met loads of amazing people. So we were like, yeah, we'll come for and I'm sure everybody says this we'll come for two years. Yeah, that was me.

Speaker 2:

We've just got married. It'll be an adventure. And about a week, two weeks before we were due to come, I said to my boss I think there's some paperwork I'm supposed to do. I think you have this thing called a visa to go to Dubai. When I look back at that girl and I said actually we think there's a recession coming so we're not going to do it now so you can have your desk back in Manchester, I said I don't think so. I've committed to clients. I've met people. My husband my now husband has given up his job. I see there's an opportunity out there, so if you won't support, I will go and do it on my own you opened this box.

Speaker 1:

Yes, yeah, absolutely. There's no pulling me back in it don't.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, don't make me clear up your mess. So I called the people that I've met and said, look, this has happened. I still want to come. Will you support me and can I support you? And they said, yep, see, when you get here. And that was literally so. When people say I had this amazing plan, I saw this opportunity in the market. It wasn't. It was a huge leap of faith, because I've met some amazing people and I genuinely did see an opportunity over here.

Speaker 1:

So that was 2008 obviously we all know what happened. That was the beginning of urban events.

Speaker 2:

Yes, yeah, um, we won a contract really quickly. The rugby sevens world cup was here. We ran the contract to run all their events and also their PR as well. So working very closely with team and managing that. So that was amazing. So we went from, we increased the headcount of the company a hundred percent within two months, so there were two of us and that was an amazing time and we had a great opportunity there and it was really good fun, worked our socks off for for it and then we ran the event.

Speaker 2:

So I replicated what I'd done in the UK. So we had sporting teams over, sporting legends over. We do lunches and dinners, but very quickly and I think it was literally in my third event where we would organize it, sell tables and sponsorship head of a bank came up to me, said I love what you're doing, but can you just do it for us? Like well, yes, that's way easier than what we've been doing. And I mean within a year my whole business model had changed. We're being approached by brands and organizations to run their events for them. So initially with the sporting and and kind of the b2b angle, and then it was more consumer and brand fed. So really quickly, the whole business model model changed and there was never a major plan, there was never a niche we were going for. It was literally led by who contacted us and what we could do and who looked and felt like good people to work with.

Speaker 1:

So was that the reason for? I mean obviously fast forward now and you've got quite a reputation for doing the experiential side of things. So was that an evolution that you saw as a result of clients contacting you, or was that a bit more of a conscious decision, as you went along to kind of focus on the experiential side versus just the? You know, let's sell tickets to this event.

Speaker 2:

Interestingly, experiential has always been the bones of what we've done. It didn't have a name then.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean, it's a more recent term, isn't it?

Speaker 2:

But I wanted to make sure that, even if you were just going to a lunch with shane warne and you're all in the room together, I want to make sure you walked out of that room and you'd felt something different, you'd seen something different, you'd experienced something. There was something you were going to talk about afterwards. That was was going to carry on. So it started with simple touch points, simple things we did, and we were really proactive with brands and said I know, barclays, you're sponsoring it, but what else can we do for you? What's your objective? What would actually elevate this experience?

Speaker 2:

What does what are your key customers like? So we brought it to them and how we could bring events to life to really make sure they were standout experiences for those guests. And then, when it got to brand and they have guidelines or they've got very specific objectives around a product or something like that it was quite easy for us to do that because we've always thought about the whole the feeling walking into that space, walking out of that space, what are they going to be the takeaways? So that's always been really integral to what we've done.

Speaker 1:

How do you approach new business now? I mean, what do you look for in a brief? There are some companies out there I think yourself included that don't always engage in the pitch process. So what's your criteria when you look at new business? We're really picky.

Speaker 2:

And I have the luxury of being the decision maker that decides whether we pitch on something or not, and it's very much a team collaboration. We have a criteria. We have a lovely roster of existing clients, some of which we've been working with for over 10 years, and so my priorities my existing clients are maximizing all opportunities for them. New clients that we often get approached I would say 80% of people we don't pitch, we don't work with, we don't get involved in anything that's a long procurement process. We don't get involved in things where we don't get to pitch anything that's a long procurement process. We don't get involved in things where we don't get to pitch.

Speaker 2:

I'm not asking my team to spend two weeks on a proposal and putting all of their effort and creative ideas into something when we're not even going to be able to sit down with a potential client and pitch our ideas and talk through it. That seems to me a waste of time if it's just on numbers. So we look at the client brief and also the brief doesn't have to be that detailed. The client needs to know what is their objective. Do they know their own brand? How do they feel about their own brand? What do they want what their objective is and budget. I need some parameters of budget, because we all know there's a massive difference between no budget and no budget, because we all know there's a massive difference between no budget and no budget. So we need a number to make sure they're not just fishing for ideas and things like that. And then they'll be the clients we work with. We sit down with them first of all, draw as much information out of them, especially if it's a new client and we don't know their brands.

Speaker 2:

And then we, you know again, we try to be as strict as possible. We don't even send anything over till. We're pitching in person. We're like a 90s ad agency. That is how we like to work.

Speaker 2:

I want to see the whites of people's eyes. I want to see their visceral reaction to what they're showing. We're showing them and I know, even though assisting clients sometimes that always isn't always especially with some of the major brands we deal with there is a process we have to go through. But we know, know we're always going to get that opportunity to pitch and I purposely kept the agency small so we can give 110% focus on our clients and we get to work with nice people and we don't have an industry or a niche that we work with. If it's a brand that excites us or product that excites us and they seem a really nice team, even if they're not entirely sure what they need to do, we can fill the gaps in for them. We can do that for them. That's what we're here for. But if you know what your brand stands for and you're a creative or a good team to work with, then we will go all out for you it's interesting.

Speaker 1:

I don't think you're alone in in that uh, in that regard with in terms of keeping your your business to a certain size, we had Adam Griffiths on from Enigma recently and David Balfour from Lightblue, and both of them said exactly the same thing that they actually reduced their client roster quite significantly and that the level they were at at the moment was where they wanted to keep the business.

Speaker 1:

And again, all in relation to being able to service their existing clients to the best of their ability, because I think we all know, don't't we? It's a lot cheaper and easier to keep your existing clients than it is to go out and find new ones, which kind of dovetails into my next comment as well, which was we've had a quite a few people on the podcast comment on how cyclical the nature of our industry is as well at the moment, and many of the people that have been on have commented that we seem to be in a in a at a time where many of the briefs that they're getting are all procurement driven. What's your feelings on this? What's been your experience?

Speaker 2:

a hundred percent agree. We're getting more of that, uh, especially um new clients people that haven't worked with us before the, the new briefs and things that are coming in, and some of our existing clients, like I say, some of the big brands we work with, because the, the mothership isn't based here, it is in the uk.

Speaker 1:

It is in germany.

Speaker 2:

It is wherever it is, and there is a process for um. You know legal transparency they have to go through as well, but those we still. If there is procurement involved but we still get to picture the actual delivery team, the marketing team, then we will, we'll take part. If it's just procurement, absolutely not. We don't get involved in that, because you need a relationship with clients and you need.

Speaker 2:

Often what's on their brief isn't what they need or want or will get the outcome that they want. It's not until you have those conversations and draw the information at them and ask the right questions that you actually say well, I know you think you wanted this or you asked for this. We think this might actually hit the spot a lot more and if they're doing a series of events, for example, this could actually cost savings in the long run. If we do this and we can give you a much more effective and creative solution, whereas if you're just sending spreadsheets into an email address, no, and we're creative agencies, that's what we do. We're coming up with ideas for things. We're creative agencies, that's what we do. We're coming up with ideas for things. So, and that's not going to come across on a piece of paper or without you know, an explanation, or meeting people face to face where do you think this push towards procurement driven briefs comes from?

Speaker 1:

is it just purely budget budget, is it? I mean, obviously, look some of these clients. They've they've had experience of events already, and often very successful experiences, so it kind of leaves me scratching my head as to why they would then gravitate towards more of a procurement process rather than go with something that's been tried and tested, that they know they've got results from as well.

Speaker 2:

I don't know the answer to that, but I think whether it's a change in senior management coming in in some companies and that we're going to do things the new way because their remit is to shave off the bottom line, because you're right, you can have a really good relationship with someone and suddenly the process has changed, or that that team because again, the cyclical nature of this of Dubai in the Middle East, means you build a great relationship with somebody and they're they're gone. A new person comes in and they're going to shake things up. So I don't know where it's coming from. It's bottom line at the end of the day, isn't it? So whether it is from a senior management's perspective that's just looking at that bottom line rather than what they're creating for their customers and their brand.

Speaker 1:

Changing tacks slightly. You've won plenty of awards over the years. What's been one that's probably meant the most to you?

Speaker 2:

I think like anything, probably your first time, Yep, so it was the. I think it was the what's On Award for Best Live Music Event and it's actually. It's giving me chills thinking about that event now.

Speaker 1:

Brilliant.

Speaker 2:

We were lucky enough to do gosh back in probably 2016 to 19,. 2016 to 19,. We did a series of huge music events for Smirnoff and for corona, and so corona sunsets was an existing global platform that we activated three years. Here and again, we we took corona's global toolkit and elevated and said we can do way better than this. Not only can we regionalize it, we can actually go way further with your sustainability targets and objectives. We want to produce something. Again, we have an amazing client who we worked really closely with and we all set the target. Well, let's wipe this out. So you're going back to Global saying look what we've done, so that not only was it Best Live Music Event, it was also we won a award for sustainability as well. So it was the first, as far as I know, still the only fully zero waste music festival in the Middle East, which is no mean feat for 30,000 people over three days. Yeah, no kidding.

Speaker 2:

It was absolute, phenomenal and it was a huge amount of collaboration and being happy to do what's not been done before and, rather than coming up with walls, coming up with okay solutions how do we do this? How do we make this happen? That was fantastic. And then my other standout event that we were able to win awards for is the Smirnoff Sound Collective. Again, that was a global platform, but New York had done a tiny little pool party and we said let's just buy, we do things way bigger. And and we said, let's just buy, we do things way bigger. And we came up with this ridiculous, in hindsight stage design with arches, huge arch truss in a really windy location. That was probably one of the most terrifying setups of my life. Looked amazing, unbelievable stage. And then just looking back and seeing I think the headline tj was and just seeing rehab stood on the TJ booth looking down at these thousands and so often when you're in an event you don't get that moment to just stop.

Speaker 1:

Take it all in.

Speaker 2:

Take it all in, and we did. I was on the side of the stage going. I love my job. This is what we do it for. The four sleepless nights I've just had, worrying about trust and weight loads and things like that. This is worth it, absolutely worth it. The two week set up Absolutely worth it. Look at these people having a great time and events like that go back to global and then that's just redefined what they do on a global platform.

Speaker 1:

Now you mentioned your Zero Waste Music Festival. Lots of companies claim sustainability as one of their core values, but you, you know I think we both know that in many cases it's often just lip service. How are companies tackling the whole sustainability issue at the moment within the event industry here in in the region?

Speaker 2:

obviously I can only speak in detail about ourselves. So I was on a um a panel. There were four of us, was a lecturer, uh, somebody from pico and then somebody from a higher power company as well. So that was a really interesting panel of people to be on, because we've gone from large-scale production right down to delivery and there there are agencies doing really great things and they're just cracking on with it. They're not making a big song and dance about it. It's like ourselves. It just becomes part of your DNA. You just get on with it and it's it's. It's just underlying. One of the one of the things you do is your rois internally along with mp, mvp scores and things like that.

Speaker 2:

So it's something that we we're really conscious of when we're designing an event and also we're taking to the client's accounts as well. So some clients don't care, they just want a really amazing event. They they don't need to report anything back. Well, whether or like it, they're going to get a zero waste report from us. So we do everything from monitoring food waste to how much production was hired av, where has it come from? How many local artists have we supported? Local suppliers? Have we supported how we minimized what? You know? Something we might have brought in, but we found a solution locally. And we do that as a matter of course because we want to track as well. And there are some of our clients, some big brands, that have been able to take these reports and then they go back to their global and they get awards for best practice and then we get asked to help implement these things for their agencies globally as well.

Speaker 2:

So we are delighted to do that because sustainability is key to what we do, because there is so much waste in our industry. Unfortunately and I think more so here because the cost of space is so expensive it's cheaper to rebuild something than it is to store it so it can be reused again. So, again, if we've got long campaigns, that's brilliant, and we work with our production partners and we make sure the materials are correct to do it and that they will have the longevity that we need, because they're being transported from A to B, things like that. We also ask our partners right, we're designing this, do you have anything in stock that can already be repurposed for this? So we're not reinventing the wheel and we're you know how can we tweak things. So it's it's cost effective, but it's also, most importantly, it's sustainable as well.

Speaker 2:

So this is key to what we do. I know there are agencies um, because I was, I've been a judge on for two years so there are some agencies that do a lot about carbon footprint monitoring and offsetting and things like that, and they're and they're doing great work there. But I know, obviously, for a lot of agencies, it will be. We have a recycling bin at the event and things like that. So, yeah, it needs to become part of everybody's DNA. It needs to be to, you know, key to what we do.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean we try hard with Warehouse 4, which is obviously my other business, the event venue and we try and do our bit to encourage, you know, people, even if it's just like please don't bring plastic water bottles. You know we've got a huge dispenser there, we'll give you the water, just don't bring in plastic water bottles. I had another guest on recently who gave us quite a really good tip actually Adam Parry, who runs the event industry news in the UK and also Event Tech Live and he said recyclable lanyards. Well, I thought that was quite good there, speaking of tech. Technology is now firmly embedded in a lot of events. So for somebody in experiential, do you use tech and if you do, when do you decide to use it?

Speaker 2:

When is it a benefit to enhancing the experience? So we do use tech in events, but we use it very carefully. So I know that one of your previous interviews ben was talking about don't just put led screws everywhere and he's even a tech company, yeah, um. So if we've got content that I really we want to immerse people in, then we bring in technology for that we also use it. And this is not reinventing, you know. This is. This is not revolutionary, but if it's a a way of interacting, to engage people, and that it enables people to interact better with something, especially if there's an educational element to the event, we're doing so.

Speaker 2:

We recently celebrated the McAllen's 200th anniversary, an amazing brand that we work very, very closely with and a great example of a brand who embrace their agency. They've taken us to Scotland. We live and breathe their brand, which is back to your question about procurement versus long-term partnerships. There was a huge amount of over 200 years. There was a huge amount of information to impart and I did want people to walk out going oh my God, I didn't know Macallan was that old or that. They partnered with that, with Peter Blake, 20 years ago on this amazing campaign. So we brought in tech elements there to really make the storytelling process interactive. It's brilliant for things like if you're doing internal conferences and you want immediate reactions so we're doing surveys and things like that to stop the old style around the room with a microphone kind of thing. So where relevant, we bring in tech. We're constantly looking for new tech ideas or ways that we can integrate it seamlessly but without distraction. That's my key element. It's got to add value and not distract people during the event.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I guess we can't talk about tech without at least having a few words about AI. What are your thoughts on AI?

Speaker 2:

I'm sick of thinking about AI.

Speaker 1:

I know, but I mean, you know it is the buzzword of the moment and I think you know our industry is amongst you know, a whole load of others, nearly everyone who is both celebrating and concerned about the rise of AI and what it means to jobs within the industry.

Speaker 2:

It's here, it's not going anywhere. Nobody's putting the lid back on that Pandora's box and we are, as all agencies will be, um are embracing ai. It's adding massive value in in programs, existing programs. So, for example, sketch up adobe where they have the ai functions. It saves time and it just helps with the finessing or changing looks and feels and things like that and it's adding great value. It's saving time, which ultimately saves clients money or means we can give them more options in a specific time.

Speaker 2:

So ai in those in that um context is really useful. Chat gbt again. It can be a useful quick and dirty tool to just look at something. I suddenly check something. But for example, when I'm in a little recruitment phase, yeah and I can spot a chat gT CV or letter straight away, and so then my concern is is it making us more dumb? And I think there's. The Roy Stewart was talking about it only yesterday. There's been some research on chat, gpt versus Google, versus using your brain, and already they can see a decline in mental capability.

Speaker 1:

Benoit had an interesting take on this. He noticed that one of the areas where they introduced AI into his business was in HR, was exactly in recruitment. At first he said you know, I was really kind of sceptical about this. And he said what they found over the course of the time so far that they've been using it is that the AI doesn't recognise nationalities or gender etc. Right, and it just picks what it thinks is the right candidate for the job. And he said what transpired with his business, electra, is that they've got a much wider range of sort of nationalities and people coming on board right now Because obviously in the past you sort of gravitate to the people that you know and if you're European then you kind of go the European route. If you're Indian you go the Indian route. You just go within the circle that you know. Ai doesn't do that. It puts what it thinks are the best candidates in front of you. And he said that's been a real eye-opener for him.

Speaker 2:

Oh, that's really interesting and automated functions like that it could probably really support with backend functions make things more efficient, and that's a great example of the use of ai yeah um, and we're actually using some of those tools to help us with our selections at the moment. So, for example, the cvs I will be receiving will have been through that where I've asked you know the criteria and they're only spitting out the ones that are, because you're obviously right, you are, you are unbiasedly biased to things because you will, you will recognize the, the company they work for, or something like that, if you're a certain nationality and things like that.

Speaker 2:

So that, yeah, whether we like it or not, that happens. So for that and it makes that process more efficient and probably especially a region like here where you might get applications that really aren't relevant.

Speaker 2:

So I think that you know there are benefits to AI and they are going to help make functions slicker and more time-effective and therefore more cost-effective. And in the creative industry you could argue. Well, if some of those things are made quicker or automated, does that give us more time to be creative? Does that give us more time to actually think and have had space to do it? But you know, things like copywriting really concern me because that is an art.

Speaker 1:

Journalism.

Speaker 2:

Copyright, journalism. These are arts and even now you can see in national newspapers we read something and you think, yeah, so the editors, the desk, hasn't checked that, because that doesn't seem quite right. So, yes, it's here to stay. It's how it's used.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I also take heart from the fact that you know, as good as AI can be and as useful as it can be in the event industry, it cannot replace personal interaction. It really can't. And I take heart from people like, what was it? Mark Cuban recently and somebody else who ran, whose name I forget, who ran an AI company, and Cuban came out and said, look, if I had to put my money anywhere in the next 10 years, it's going to be in events, precisely because of the. Well, one of the reasons was because of the rise of AI and the fact that you know, as more and more you know, fake content is out there. People will crave authentic and real experiences, which, for us, is this it's face-to-face, and AI, however good it gets, will never be able to recreate that face-to-face, that personal touch of being in a room with friends, colleagues, peers, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 2:

And if brands want to connect with their customers, then they need to do that in person, because otherwise it's going to become faceless or the you know. It's a churn of content out there and I think what brands will start to do is really focus, because it's very difficult now for brands to cut through because there is so much noise out there. It's not like it was before social media and you can have those direct conversations more it's there's a lot of noise. So we'll probably see the rise of brands really focusing on their niches. So a smaller audience, but actually a really loving audience, a really focused, engaged audience. So we'll start to see more of that as well, which I think is a great way for the brands.

Speaker 1:

Now we work in an industry that is notoriously male dominated. Tough question when do you think that comes from and why aren't?

Speaker 2:

there more women in the event industry? I wish I could answer that one, and it's actually quite hard for me because I've got, we've got one man, that's it. The rest of us are all women, so I'm going. What do you mean?

Speaker 1:

there are no women. I'm surrounded by women.

Speaker 2:

And in fact one of my team. He was going through an equipment process at the moment and she even said yesterday. She said I mean they're all women. I mean I looked at the guys but they just weren't as good as the women. So maybe we again unconscious bias in our team.

Speaker 1:

I would concur with that. I would hire a female event manager. If you want something done, you give it to a busy woman. Absolutely no-transcript.

Speaker 2:

More of that as well. You don't need to be all the qualified because, nothing beats experience. I think there needs to be more support for women coming through and I'd be interested to see, through universities and obviously because they're now off, for example, event management courses and things like that and creative courses that the support that are coming through. I don't know the answer to that, because there's no need for there's no obvious reason for a gender divide. It's not huge on-site elements or things like that as well, it's creative, which should be 50-50.

Speaker 2:

It's management, it's organization it should be 50-50 or one way. So we do what we can. We've always had an intern programme where we've taken individuals and they've always been female who are either recent graduates or are current studying, and we're actually recruiting for a full-time and our internship is the idea is they stay on it's not just a three months and that they grow. And I see my ex-interns now and they've got really senior jobs in the event industry and the different elements of it.

Speaker 2:

It's in in power companies and things like that, not traditionally you know, female if we're, if we're thinking about traditional female roles and nothing makes me prouder and they come bounding up and they say oh my god, I remember you were the first one to let me an internship 10 years ago and everything I've learned then and it's thanks to you that I had the enthusiasm and the passion to get to where I am now. So we are doing our individual bit. More needs to be done, but I'm also interested on the influx of people coming in the industry now and what is happening there.

Speaker 1:

I was just going to touch on that because you mentioned, obviously, your intern program. Are you seeing a lot of people wanting to get into the event industry? Because there's a lot written about Gen Z and specific generations, about not being willing to put in the hard yards, being lazy, et cetera, et cetera, and events are hard work and very stressful and it obviously isn't for everyone. So are you seeing that pipeline coming through?

Speaker 2:

Maybe I answer this question in a week's time, as we've been through all the new intern CDs.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2:

I've definitely seen a change over my 18 years here. A lot less coming through now than would have done before, than we've had before, but a lot more, a lot different nationalities coming through now than before. We would have been very european focused again, not just by where we were advertising, probably because what people saw we did. So it's good to see we're getting far more nationalities coming through. What I am finding is a lot of the graduates are how do I explain this? Hugely educated. I've got people coming to me with, but they've never done a day's work and I need somebody to be able to converse with customers, to be able to work in a team. There's also a lot of requests can I work from home? Well, no, it's your first job. This is how you learn YouTube videos won't cut it.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely Because the best lessons I learned were watching my boss negotiating and me wondering where he or she was going with that conversation, and then comes the end point and go ah, that's clever. So, yes, you have to be in person. So we're seeing a change in people's expectations of what they're worth financially, where they think they should sit within the business and where they will be sitting physically and historically within the business. But those gems are still out there. We've had some cracking team members and we have a really good staff retention. I tend to only lose people to other countries which I can't compete with.

Speaker 1:

No, you can't compete with a global move.

Speaker 2:

I'm gone some places I'm like, could you work from the uk, could you? And that's you know. And there's tears when people leave, which is great and and I love it when people leave and they go on and they do great things and they keep in touch with us. So I like, I'm quite happy to be an incubator, to go on to other things. So long answer to let me answer that question for you next week when I see the talent coming through. But you can. You, only I'm looking for attitude. You can teach all the other skills. I need someone with the right attitude when they walk through my door and and the rest you can teach, and they don't always have the right attitude now, when you look back on your career to date, what are the biggest things that you take away from it?

Speaker 1:

I don't't just mean like a you know, a specific event that stood out, but maybe on a personal level, what are the things that you take away? I mean running your own business, for example. It can be a lonely experience, yeah, yeah. What are the things that you've taken away over the years?

Speaker 2:

When I look back now, I just think what a ride the opportunities that I've been given and the opportunities I've created for myself. As we know, it is 50% luck and it is 50% graft on that luck Putting yourself in the right place at the right time or putting your hand up to say I can do that and thinking I'm not entirely sure how I can do that, but I know I've got enough support that we can make that happen and we will do it. And looking back at the results and that's how you build your portfolio. But, yeah, I've worked with some amazing clients. I've worked with some amazing individuals, from creative to sports stars, to music stars, to engineers, to content creators, and it's this army of people that you have, that family around that specific event or project or period of time that you learn from and that you give back to. And you all stand back and look at those results.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, the opportunities I've been given, the things I've done, the things I've been part of. I'm honoured to be in this industry that I fell into. There was no great dream to be in events, but to have fallen into this industry and to get to do things I do on a daily basis and to get, to be able to go. I've had an idea what we could do. Do you like it, client? And they go. Yeah, let's do it. And that's the greatest privilege when a client trusts you to take that and you know your vision, their vision, and run with it. I, yeah, that's the things I look back thank. Thank you for putting your trust in me. Clients, thank you for your support, all of my colleagues, internal and external as well. And yeah, there's a book somewhere with all the stories over the last 30 years, I think.

Speaker 1:

We all suffer from time to time from imposter syndrome, don't we? Do you think you could look back over your time in events? Was there a specific point at which you kind of went? You know what? Actually, I kind of know my shit. Does it ever happen? I know what I'm doing.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if that ever I mean women again worse than men on this I think it's probably only in the last few years actually older and wiser, suffering falls a lot less gladly now, and you just have to take stock of the things you've delivered and the things that you've done and go yeah, we can do this. It might be a different form, it might be a different shape, but we've been here and I think sometimes we all have to remember it's not brain surgery.

Speaker 2:

We are not saving lives. We are showing people a damn good time and we were showing the clients their money is well invested, but we are not saving lives and I think sometimes we have to take stock. You know what, what the parameters of what we're doing and how can I do it most creatively? So I think that's probably only been in the last few years yeah, I think it's a fine line, isn't it?

Speaker 1:

I mean, there is a point I think that we all reach or I hope we reach anyway where you, you do realize that the sum of your experience is quite vast and that you are capable. You do know what you're doing. At the same time, I'm also humble enough to know that I will never stop learning. There is always something that I don't know, there is always something that I can take away from someone else, and I think the smartest of us in the room as well will surround ourselves with people from whom we can gain even more knowledge from.

Speaker 2:

If you're not doing something which makes you nervous or apprehensive, you're not learning, you're not changing anything. Get out of your comfort zone, yeah you need to be out of your comfort zone. You need to question is this going to come out the way I wanted it to have? I got the right Because you're pushing your boundaries. If it's all smooth sailing all the way through, you're not progressing. Smooth sailing all the way through, you're not progressing, you're coasting. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well and finally, I ask all my guests this question I'm a music fan, I know you are. We've talked about it a little bit earlier. We all use music in different ways. I get home and stick the vinyl yes, vinyl Back to vinyl, showing my age again, and then, just, you know, sit back, relax.

Speaker 2:

I'm curious, though, what's on your?

Speaker 1:

playlist I'm a club kid. Oh, I'm a club and rave kid of the 90s.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, my, my youth is hacienda um progress, rehab, renaissance. That that's my youth, so that that is my happy place. That music I mean. I even managed to wangle doing my dissertation at university on the haacienda Fantastic, the most engaged subject I've ever been on. I love that euphoria moment with everybody together, those big tunes, music dropping. So whether it is Hacienda Classicals because that's what we're getting nowadays here, or large live concerts, I love that moment. Everybody together, live concerts. Uh, I love that moment everybody's together. So me, if I'm, if I'm relaxing, it's a little bit of graham park pauletta, mike pickering, sasha that would be my go-to playlist fantastic.

Speaker 1:

I'm going to leave you with a bit of a sobering thought. I know you're not too active on instagram, but did you see the uh the clip recently with underworld performing? I did look at that tammy and I did think, oh my god, are they that old? And then immediately thought am I that old?

Speaker 2:

I was that old, oh God, yeah, I think I'm Peter Pan, until yeah.

Speaker 1:

Until you look in the mirror and then you go, oh, ok, ok. And finally, what are you looking forward to in the next 12 months?

Speaker 2:

Oh, we've got a good year planned, so, literally, the next 2026 is looking really good and, as I mentioned, expansion, so that's key for me. At the moment, I keep the agency small, but we're bringing on more creative talent and we're bringing on younger talent as well that we're bringing up through the business as well, so that's really exciting. At the moment, we've got some really exciting projects in the pipeline with clients we've been working with for a long time who are giving us a cup lunch and they've said we know what you can do just blow our socks off, um, which is the greatest form of flattery ever.

Speaker 1:

And, yeah, I'm really excited about the next 12 months and what we're going to be delivering creatively tammy's been fantastic chatting with you pleasure to see you thanks for joining me on the podcast you event news dxb is brought to you by warehouse 4, probably dubai's best independent event venue. Thank you myself, ian Carlos. The studio engineer and editor was Roy DeMonte, the executive producer was myself and Joe Morrison, and this podcast was produced by W4 Podcast Studio Dubai, and if you haven't done so already, please do click that follow or subscribe button. We'll see you next time.